Episode #73 -David Garfinkel on 3 Copywriting DNA Story Formats That Persuade Anyone To Believe Anything You Say (and buy anything you sell)

Podcast: Download (Duration: 31:27 — 25.4MB)

John McIntyre:Hey, it’s John McIntyre here, the Auto Responder Guy. It’s time for Episode 73 of the McMethod Email Marketing podcast where you get nitty-gritty techniques, tips and strategies to make more money with e-mail marketing and sales funnels in your business, so you can have a kick ass lifestyle and do pretty much whatever the hell you want whether it’s living in beautiful sunny Thailand, it’s actually rainy season right now, if you look at the window or if you want to play with your kids and go snowboarding and live in the Arctic Circle or whatever that floats your boat.

Now, today we’re talking to David Garfinkel. David Garfinkel is a hell of a copywriter. Right now, he is the world’s greatest copy writing coach. His clients tend to become leaders in their niches. Now, we’re going to talk about that including who those clients are or a couple of them in this interview. He’s also the moderator of John Carlton’s [inaudible 00:00:47].

This guy is one of the top copywriters in the world. He’s also the greatest copy writing coach and he’s also available to coach you if you’re up for it and we’ll talk about that in the show today as well. Now, a copy writing DNA story format, that’s the topic for today. He’s got a couple different story formats that we’re going to run through that you can use in your emails and your sales letters.

Anytime you need to persuade so much to do something, a story is a fantastic piece you can add to the recipe to really pump up the persuasion power, pump up the selling power of what you’re trying to achieve.

Okay. Now, these are very simple stories you’ll recognize them but what’s greater about David is that he breaks it down and makes it quite simple to execute on to take his story telling format or the copy writing DNA story format and take that in and come up with your own story that’s going to work with it.

Okay, he’s a great teacher which is why he’s the world’s greatest copy writing coach. Now, to get the show notes for this episode of the email marketing podcast, go to the mcmethod.com/73. Now, this week’s McMaster’s inside of the week is I’ve mentioned this … I’ve mentioned this everywhere in some McMaster’s on the blog on the podcast is this handwriting sales letters that’s taking old school sales letter and old school add those long form direct response ads you might see in the newspaper taking a pen and paper and sitting down and literally, writing it out by hand.

I did this for about one hour a day or I’d say, maybe it must have been six months and I got through I think it was at least 100 sales letter because I tracked it in a spreadsheet. Now, that I really credit that, that time which I haven’t been doing it lately but I credit that period which was probably a year or two ago which was really given me this sort of copy writing chops in the marketing knowledge that I have today. I’ve built a really solid foundation.

Whenever someone asks me how to become … How can they become a great copy writer, the first thing I suggest they do is they go and do  that and really, you’re just studying old school pieces of copy writing because sales and persuasion doesn’t really change, psychology doesn’t change much. 

You go and study that and even if you’re not writing long form sales letters for your business or working as a freelance or with clients or anything like that, you’re still going to develop an incredibly deep understanding of what you got to do to persuade someone to do something, okay?

Now, we so we talk about the McMaster’s. If you want to learn more about handwriting sales letters or find a good product that’s going to help you do it, I recommend Copy Hour which is what I did. It’s by a friend of mine, Derek Johanson. If you’d to Google in sort for McMethod, two simple steps.

You’ll find an article that I’ve written called “Two Simple Steps to becoming a freelance copy writer.” That’s where I break down my journey what’s worked for me and also, there’s a link to Copy Hour which you can click on and go sign up to that and get started with handwriting sales letters.

That’s it from the McMaster’s insight of the week. McMaster’s is my private training committee, there is a form, there are separate products inside that form. We have monthly training webinars. We called them the McMaster’s round table and it’s just a great cool place where it’s that getting better with email marketing and sales funnels and the pay traffics and split testing, all of that stuff, basically hoping you make more money in your business, the very simple value proposition.

Okay. Now, if you want to learn more about that, go to the mcmethod.com/mcmasters or just go to the mcmethod.com and on the top menu, there’s a link to the sales page. Now, that’s it on that. Let’s talk about one review this week from Enox. Enox is a subscriber actually on my list. He’s being indeed some great results for the consulting and he’s just an all-around great guy.

Sorry. He’s got a review here. Five stars, not just about email. Anyone interested in making more money or running a real business would do well, they listen to John’s interviews and hopefully your competitor is enlisting. He’s the best and the brightest on and off on my marketers for his show and he manages to squeeze the valuable insights from them again and again. Well done John, keep up the great work. “This show is my current favorite.”

Thank you for the review and I am honored to be your current favorite podcast to listen to and keep sending me emails. I like it. I like getting emails from you, brother. Now, if you want to leave a review, you can do so on iTunes follow the clunky interface search for the McMethod Email Method podcasting and you find a place to leave a review and that’s it for me for now. Let’s get into this interview and talk to David Garfinkel.

It’s John McIntyre here, the Auto Responder guy. I’m here with David Garfinkel. Now David is one of the world’s greatest story, he is the world’s greatest copy writing coach and many of his clients have become leaders in different niches. One example I like is Chris [inaudible 00:11:38], he’s the guy who did “Text your ex back” which was a huge dating product or is a huge dating product on Clickbank. The whole idea is you use a few text messages and you get your ex-girlfriend back. He is also, David is also the moderator of John Carlton’s master mine now, so he is helping out with John Carlton and making sure that that is a huge win for everyone involved. 

David how are you going?

David Garfinkel:Great. Thanks for the intro and nice to be here. Yeah I’ve been coaching people and copy writing and coming out with on-line courses for almost fifteen years now and it’s an interesting job because the more things change the more they stay the same. The hot thing right now is video sale letters VSL as opposed to the written sales letter but the same basics apply. There are subtle difference so forth but storytelling, making an experience real through the written word it’s all the same. It’s been that way for as long as you have written word. It’s a lot of fun to me.

I started out as a business journalist and yeah did well, did really well, became the San Francisco bureau chief for [inaudible 00:06:09] World News but it wasn’t me so I finally went to copy writing about twenty years ago, over twenty years ago. I just love this field, I love the people in it and the work that we do.

John McIntyre:Okay so you … what did you do over the last twenty years? Just give me a quick run-down on what sort of happened in the last twenty. You started writing and copying and you did direct mail stuff.

David Garfinkel:Yeah I did direct mail; I had a stunning home run earlier on. I wrote a letter for a small company that turned into forty million in dollars’ worth for them. It’s almost embarrassing when you have that big, I have had some other multi-million dollar promotions but I’ve never done anything like that since. I met Jay Conrad Levinson, the Guerrilla marketing guy a few years and he asked me to write the book called “The rule of direct mail,” with him. I’m just sort of a natural teacher. I love to do it.

That book never got written but we did two others together and we did an audio book, I don’t even know if it’s in print anymore on “Guerrilla Copy Writing” so yeah I basically worked my way up the ranks like everybody else does when you first get started. You know work too hard for too little money. 

Finally when I really got it people just kept asking me to teach them and that’s how I got here so it’s been … Maybe in the [inaudible 00:07:20] I’m coaching, teaching and creating products and half my time actually writing copy for my own business and [inaudible 00:07:27].

John McIntyre:Okay so as well as the copy writing coaching, you’re also … you got seven of your own products that you’re writing copy for?

David Garfinkel:Yeah, I am. You know the copy writing indication works and then I’ve got something that I’m going to be working on in the financial services industry. I really can’t talk about too much yet as its premature. I’m an entrepreneur at heart which I guess every copy writer is or should be because think about it, in one sales letter industry you can save 40 million dollars for business, that’s pretty entrepreneurial.

I’m not saying you can or I never did again but that’s not just being an artist putting beautiful words together, it doing business.

John McIntyre:Yeah absolutely okay. Well let’s get into some of the contents. You mentioned a couple of different topics. The one I thought was the most interesting is this copywriting, you call it “The copywriting DNA story informer” and one thing I talk about a lot in this podcast with the other guests is just the power of stories. 

It blew me away before I sort of got the hang of storytelling and how persuasive it was. I didn’t really get it but after the fact when you start, when you get good at it you see how with a good story you can make … I’ve done it with friends at bars or parties and things like that With a good story you can make anyone almost believe anything. I love talking about stories and that, that’s why I thought we would go down this line.  

Tell me about this copy writing DNA story format.

David Garfinkel:Sure. I have seven of them out. I’ll share three of them with you now. We don’t have time for all seven but one thing I like to say is people can argue with an opinion. These days they argue with your facts but the truth is nobody argues with a story. We’re sort of wired to listen to them where some days which I buy into, that stories where the original way the human race survived before we had writing, we would convey wisdom about that saber tooth tiger in the woods and how you need to keep yourself safe when you’re out there.

Stories about, stories are kind of metaphor. Stories I think are wisdom that has been passed down and somehow neurologically we’re wired to be entertained by stories. I know I certainly … I love good stories, I love to watch good shows on TV, good movies and good story [inaudible 00:09:25].

What I did when I got serious about teaching people copy is to start to go through lots of ads, sales letters and other promotions to find out what where the common elements and found several themes that I call copy writing DNA so [inaudible 00:09:41].

John McIntyre:Yeah let’s get stuck into it, let’s do it.

David Garfinkel:All right, well the first one is what I call “From humiliating defeat to triumphing victory,” and this is one of the most universal stories. You can see it in a movie, you can see it in stories in the bible, you can see it in great legends, you can see it the theme of a fairytale. That’s not coincidence because these are things the stories would inspire people and when you use this in your copy you are almost programmed in a way you could say to listen for a story, to start routing for this underdog hero.

I’m sure you’ve experienced that as will be when a guys down on his luck and he’s trying so hard and he deserves to succeed and just gets beaten back at every turn. 

Let me tell you a story that is actually one of the best copy stories in all of history. It starts off almost a hundred years ago in Coney Island in Brooklyn, New York. Its Summer time, the sun is hot and you’re at the beach and you can feel the sand beneath your feet, the breeze is cool but your feet are hot, you can smell the hot dogs in the air and smell all the food, waves are rolling and you get the picture … it’s the beach in the Summer.

Off in the distance you see this young man lying on the beach on a beach towel and there’s a nice girl next to him. There’s this skinny guy and he’s with his girlfriend and suddenly this big hulk of a bully comes up and kicks sand in his face and he shudders  and his girlfriend says to him, “What are you going to do about it?” and he says, “Nothing” and shrugs his shoulders and looks at this bully. The bully laughs at him and insults him and walks off. Well the girlfriend leaves … 

She doesn’t want to be around a guy who’s not going to protect her right?  You flash forward a year, it’s the same beach and the same people except now this guy is pretty bulked up. The bully comes up and says, “There’s that little squirt again,” and he kicks him. The same guy gets up and he beats the living crap out of the bully. His girlfriend is [inaudible 00:11:38] is very excited. Imagine what happens next with them … and I’m going to stop the story here but let me ask you something … You recognize that story?

John McIntyre:Oh yeah.

David Garfinkel:Can you place it? Do you know what it is?

John McIntyre:I can place it. This is … that’s from a sales letter.

David Garfinkel:No it’s actually a comic strip. It’s probably also found its way into a sales letter. A copy writer named Charles Roman wrote it and Hatton a New York copy writer. He wrote it about an Italian immigrant who was from [inaudible 00:12:05] in [inaudible 00:12:05] and the immigrants name was Angelo [inaudible 00:12:07] but he changed his name to Charles [inaudible 00:12:11] when he came to the US. 

The name of the comic strip was “The insult that made a man out of Mac from humiliation to victory,” and it’s for a muscle building course of a Charles that was [inaudible 00:12:23] course, it’s that. I haven’t checked like this year but as in a couple of years ago it had been running solid in certain magazines as a comic strip for seventy to eighty years solid. 

You can see the elements of this story there. Here’s this guy, his humiliated and then he was hurt after he was humiliated by his girlfriend just walking away, the guy laughing at him. He decides to do something about it and he goes from that humiliation initially to triumphing victory when he beats the guy up a year later when he tries to bully him again.

You can apply that story to just about anything, doesn’t have to be about muscle building or bullies but it can be about being defeated and getting up, dusting yourself off, making the changes in your life, whatever you need to make It’s a fascinating story. 

It’s interesting to me as I tell it and I’ve been talking about this on and off for at least ten years myself. Yeah there’s something about that. That’s one of the happy writing DNA things from “Humiliating defeat to triumph and victory.” 

John McIntyre:Okay, one thing that I think is worth pointing out is sometimes and I’ve done this before I was copy writing I think that if I just tell a story someone’s going to believe me and that might be true. A story is going to be more persuasive than just telling them the facts which I guess might have been, “Buy this muscle building, gain weight.”

What’s really important or probably the most important part is that the story is something that resonates with the prospect of the person. In this case with this the skinny guy on the beach. The whole idea is the reason is not because it’s a story, it’s that resonates with skinny guys everywhere because they have had to put with bullies in school and in college and maybe on the beach.

David Garfinkel:Oh yeah very good point. A story is much more believable when you can identify with the hero and that is what one of the great secrets about making a story work. That’s why I always advise writers to start with a true story and report it as facts. You don’t have to end up with that same story but if you don’t have a lot of experience constructing stories you may not be able to pull something out of a whole box. 

On the other hand if you start with a true story, you have the basic and the facts there, then you obviously want to trim it down, start as late as possible and just have the interesting exciting details. You can change facts if you don’t want to … Obviously you’ve got to be careful with copywriting especially if the story’s a claim about a product and how it works and that’s a long conversation.

Essentially if you are promising a certain kind of performance about a product you’ve got to be able to back it up. There are other kinds of … That story … obviously nobody’s going to think well if I do the dynamic tension system I’m going to be able to beat bullies up. That’s different. It’s not like the guy said, “Well you know I’ve gained three inches of muscle and like biceps and cholesterol leveret.” That’s different when you start to make real specific claims. I’m sorry for going off on a tangent but I wanted to make that point.

John McIntyre:No it’s a great point. I think the interesting part though is I think with a good story that really … you don’t necessary for it to be persuasive. You can like a vague plan about beating up bullies and no one’s really going to go out and beat up bullies if they get big and ripped. That’s not the point. That resonates it’s still very, very powerful 

David Garfinkel:That’s one thing stories do, when you have very specific believable events in them, people will generalize, they will take that one story and they will say … Okay well I don’t really have to worry about beating up bullies but I want to look good at the beach or I want to look good at the club or I want to have more energy or I want my girlfriend to stop bugging me about letting my muscle tone go … or whatever.

People will fill in blanks but if you have a very general story with nothing specific it’s not very believable. If you started talking about this in terms of … Well some people aren’t in as good shape as they could be and if you are like that and you can do it … First of all its boring, it’s idiotic. Hopefully no one will do that but you see the difference between them … I took you to a time, a place, I put you on this beach where you can feel the sand, smell the hotdogs, it seemed very real because of those real details.

John McIntyre:One thing just to bring it back to email. We talk about marketing on this podcast … the reason I love email marketing is because you can take … my way doing email and several other people that I know … is that you take a simple story like that, make it two hundred or three hundred words and then you have a pitch at the end.

One side benefit of doing an email that way is that you get so … you end up writing a lot of email. What that does is that it means is that you end up writing a lot of stories so you continually hone this story telling ability when you realize that you can take anything and turn it into an interesting story. It’s quite fascinating. 

David Garfinkel:Yeah, you’re right and I love emails.  Don’t know if you read Ben [inaudible 00:17:25]? I love his stuff all the time. He’s able to tell a good story in two, three hundred words. I’m sure you are too. Once you get the practice you’ll learn there are certain elements. You need a set-up, a challenge and the transformation and the result. Right, set-up, challenge and so … you can do that in two or three hundred words. If you’re sort of wordy then you may need a little practice but that’s entirely possible to do it. It’s not really hard once you get the hang of it.

John McIntyre:Let’s talk about … you said you had three stories, well story telling formats. What’s story telling format number two?

David Garfinkel:Okay, this one’s called, “Turn traction to cash.”

John McIntyre:Okay.

David Garfinkel:Turn traction to cash … so obviously there’s a real story there. It’s a major on-line business eBay. The CEO of eBay later ran for the Governor of California. Now I think she’s in charge of another [inaudible 00:18:17] company Hewlett Packard. I’ve seen this a lot as a kid, I used to see these ads for coins, I used to be a coin collector and they’d say “If you have a nineteen forty five D nickel it’s worth a blah, blah ….”  People go through their coins. 

They used to run these ads in Popular Science about worm farms and they would tell a story about how you could take earth worms and breed them and then sell them. Well, the first two parts were true. It wasn’t quite so easy in this I didn’t know anyone to buy your worms but … It was a good story; it got me to send away for it.

Actually one of my subscribers in the “World copy writing this letter” told me she’d been into that to. In fact Jimmy, president Jimmy Carter’s brother was selling this little eBook or little … it wasn’t an eBook at the time. It was like fifty years ago but … this little manual on how to sell earth worms.

I mean this is almost the fable of the … not the fable so much as the ark type of the oculist that turns lead into gold. It is a very up-healing human story. You can probably think of examples yourself where people-

John McIntyre:This is a … Is this mainly for if you’re selling like a sort of a business or can you use this anywhere?

David Garfinkel:I think you can use it anywhere. I’m meaning you might be selling a book to women who’re trying to save money and they have clothes that are out of fashion and here are a few patterns that you can use to make your clothes look like new. You can see how much I know about woman’s clothes and fashion. That’s probably totally impossible. 

This is really the story about adding value. It’s what we do as entrepreneurs so you can apply it to just about anything. Of course people who do this if you’re trying to sell a story about a guy who came in and turned around a company that was dead or bankrupt. 

That’s sort of the same thing to right, turning trash into cash. It fits in a lot of different concepts. These are not narrow purpose stories; these are kinds of stories that are sort of universal that I found were showing up over and over again in copywriting.

John McIntyre:That the whole idea of “The copy writing DNA.” You can take a story like this and use it anywhere. What do you think about … I think it was Kurt [Vanaguard 00:20:37], his got the … a lot of people talked about it, Kurt [Vanaguard 00:20:39] … I’ve no idea if I’m saying his name right. [crosstalk 00:20:41] selling [inaudible 00:20:43]. Yeah Kurt [Vanaguard 00:20:44]. I remember reading he was on a [inaudible 00:20:48] for seven different types of stores. This is similar to what we’re going through here. It that towards your stories or is that a different thing?

David Garfinkel:I’m not familiar with him. I really enjoyed his novels but I’ve never seen that but … they may be different. You’ll have to tell me what they are as I don’t honestly know. There are people that say there are only four plots or twenty plots or … Stories … okay this might be a better answer for you. Stories are about change, stories are about somebody who wants something or needs something or is afraid of something. 

They cannot go in their life they way they are and so something happens to them or they make a decision or they go on a journey to make some kind of transformation, some change and they end up better or if it’s a really tragic story and we probably wouldn’t use this, except maybe if we’re were talking about a competitor’s product, we probably wouldn’t use this in copy writing. It’s a tragedy that may turn out worse or they may die. They’re

John McIntyre:You could do that. 

David Garfinkel:[inaudible 00:21:47].

John McIntyre:You could use a tragedy story for showing what would happen if someone didn’t use the product.

David Garfinkel:There you go, that’ll probably be much safer than inviting a law suit from one of your competitors.

John McIntyre:You could insinuate that.

David Garfinkel:That’s true, that’s true, exactly. Yeah. I’ve got a third one though if you want.

John McIntyre:That’s good.

David Garfinkel:I don’t know if this will be in Kurt [Vanaguard’s 00:22:13] list but it works great in marketing or advertising.  The name of this DNA structure is “You work hard and you deserve a reward”. We even … I guess it’s been in Australia and Thailand, in America for a while. Mc Donald had a TV commercial that (singing), same thing. Why do you deserve a break, because you worked hard and you deserve a reward … Anything?

John McIntyre:No.

David Garfinkel:No. don’t mess up you lunch or you’re at Mc Donald’s. Again this is sort of in the past in the eighties, which is what about thirty years ago. There was a guy named Joe Kirble, he was one of those great copy writers, a great teacher of copy writing Kirble with a K-I-R-B-L-E of “The lazy man’s way to riches’. To my mind that title has the implication of what went into it that you worked hard and deserve a reward, meaning you worked hard all of your life but you’ve only made a living not a fortune. Now you deserve an easier way to make all the money that you deserve. 

He sold billions. Oh my god I don’t know how many books he sold. He used to run full page ads in the Los Angeles Times and they could make two or three times his ad’s cost back. Amazing [inaudible 00:23:36].

John McIntyre:Just with that book.

David Garfinkel:He’d do a lot of other things too. He did real estate courses, he did galling systems, god knows what else he did. I don’t know his whole [inaudible 00:23:47]. I never met the guy. I know people who’ve met him but I never met him myself.

John McIntyre:I remember, I think his sales letter was one of the first ones I wrote out by hand when I was doing the whole hand writing exercise. 

David Garfinkel:It’s excellent isn’t it? He would tell a story after story up there. He talks about-

John McIntyre:Its one big story.

David Garfinkel:Begging the bank for a loan and himself. Now he’s giving them loans of a hundred thousand dollars a crack with CD’s or [inaudible 00:24:15]. He is a great story teller for sure.

John McIntyre:Yeah absolutely. All right that’s from “Humiliating defeat, triumph to victory” and “Turn trash into cash” and “As you’ve worked hard, you deserve a reward”. 

Just with this last one, you could be selling anything, like especially with a product where someone’s [inaudible 00:24:32] enjoy it and then not have to work even harder. Mc Donald’s use it with their food. You could use it with [inaudible 00:24:38], make someone relax and have fun. It’s like you worked hard, now you deserve a reward … and the reward is our product.

David Garfinkel:Exactly. It would work very well.

John McIntyre:So what about … one think I thought would be interesting to ask before we wrap it up was … I know you have a number of coaching clients and you probably see it in your good things and bad things when working with people one on one like that. I’m just curious how many mistakes do you see people make when it comes to storytelling?

David Garfinkel:That’s a good question. People make a lot of mistakes. The biggest is when the story is boring and no matter how [inaudible 00:25:12] good the story is, it’s no good if it doesn’t pull peoples interest. A lot of times people don’t include dialogue. In stories there should be people talking to each other. There should be people interacting.

Stories are about people, not about products and technology. Stories lacking human drama are often boring. I think the other problem is often stories are too long. People in the beginning tend to put to many details in it which is good but when you put to many details in it, you’re not done yet. In fact I love this [inaudible 00:25:46] from Joe Carbo; he talked about the art principle. You remember that? Build the best radio you can and then you take out as many parts and see if its still working and when you get down to the minimum amount of parts that’s what you sell.

John McIntyre:That’s a great way to put it. 

David Garfinkel:Same thing with the story. I wasn’t here with anything. Write it out as long as it needs to be and then you see whatever you can siphon. How to substitute a shorter sentence, how can I substitute a one syllable word for a two syllable word? How can I make this flow better? 

I guess one problem is thinking that because you’re a smart person and you’re successful you can get everything done in one take, you can get everything done in one time, not going back and editing and really looking at it at what we call “The cold light of day”.

Actually taking some time to refine it, to take it to the next level, really give it that craftsmanship it needs.

John McIntyre:Okay, so really just take a bit more time to sort of… Obviously it’s got to be interesting, make sure it’s about people and then … That reminds me that’s such a classic just writing tip of writing which is basically to remove, if you can say something with less words then say it with less words.

David Garfinkel:Yeah absolutely.

John McIntyre:Well let’s wrap it up right here. Before we go there, we talked about you mentioned your coaching program and you also have a book on Amazon. Let’s talk about that.

David Garfinkel:Sure. My coaching program is for somebody who … I think my best clients these days are people who have their own businesses, they understand the power of copywriting and direct response stories, a video, scripts, emails and they’d like to get better at it. I have one client right now who is a seven million dollar software company. He’s been writing copy for twenty years and he’s good at it. He’s built a company off of its copying but he’s finding a fresh set of eyes, someone who’s worked with a lot of business owners like me can help him take things to the next level.

I also work with copywriters who really want to be the best, Chris [Sidod 00:27:57] aka Michael [inaudible 00:27:59] is a great example. Chris is just unstoppable. He is a very driven guy, very successful, as you said a top selling [inaudible 00:28:09] products. Those are the two types of … and I have a number of other people become really successful, freelance copywriters. 

In Chris’s case he was a freelance copywriter. Now he’s become a business owner.  I guess that bridges both categories. That’s why this year long program, it’ll be the hardest course you’ve ever taken in your life because I push people. Learning to write copy was harder than anything I’ve ever done to. Gosh it’s worth it. 

I’ll give you URL, it is garfinkelcoaching.comand there is some information if someone’s interested in that. Also I do sells letter [inaudible 00:28:56] and work for many top people. Some of them would not like me to use their names but trust me I have.

There’s information about the [inaudible 00:29:06] on page two. The other thing I have an Amazon best seller out called “Break Through Copywriting”. It’s available only as a Kindle right now. My publisher asked me if we can release it as a hard cover or no maybe a soft cover. It’s a print book and that’s not going to be available for several months but you can get it on Amazon right now so you can break though copy writing or David Garfinkel will break you operating.

As Amazon says you can be reading it in less than a minute. How’s that? 

John McIntyre:Cool well all the links to those to the coaching and the Amazon book “Break Through Copywriting” on the website at the mcmethod.com so we can get the show notes there and get the links. Yeah well thank you David. I really appreciate you on to talk about the story time.

David Garfinkel:You welcome, my pleasure, nice to talk with you John.